Curse

Mourne · Sep 29, 2008, 03:27 PM // 15:27

You're right, VoR dmg does need a nerf. Same with Soul Bind's duration/recharge ratio.

I personally loved played TA ~1.5 years ago. Granted back then thumper's and Bsurge Elementalists were all over the place, you didn't have to worry about running into the same build over and over. You would fight people who...omg...used different builds/class setups. And the thing was, most of the combos worked as long as people knew how to play.

Either way, I pretty much refuse to play TA anymore, which sucks because I wouldn't mind getting the last 260 points for r6. I feel like RA is better then TA at times right now ><

Teh Jace · Sep 29, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38

TA is allright now. Some old players have made comeback, some pure TA guilds have been made (of various quality).

It still suffers from the presence of guilds like vE or ursn and their hex crap but I think more ppl actually started playing balanced and trying to get better at it which are indeed good news.

BTW Even old lamers like pax run balanced...

On the other hand broken skills like ff, wod, magebane, grasping earth and many others still remain in the game untouched. Monks still keep chaining their stances on recharge. Stanceless templates with guardian still work though.

Imo it's still better to get over several retarded skills than to start playing pvp in Warhammer online.

X Cytherea X · Sep 29, 2008, 06:50 PM // 18:50

why does all "balanced" look the same? there was a time that the concept of "balanced" could actually *gasp* vary. different frontlines, different midlines, different (not so much) backline. now it's always w, r, n, mo, with very few teambuild differences. ZZZZZZ BORING, back to RA for me

moko · Sep 29, 2008, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Warrior -> mostly hammer, needed for defense as most people do nothing but lineback

a derv or sin would work for good teams, but sins aren't suited so much for "balanced" (except possibly scythe sins), and dervs are well .. too squishy as they'll be linebacked perma too. so A/D with at least crit defenses, the rest is auto "fail" for most people.

shock axe still works too ofc.

ranger can't really be subbed out. good pressure, disruption, it's a key to win games usually.

the nec CAN change, i've had alright success swapping this out for mesmers, paras, another war/ ranger.. but it's main reason atm is FF IMO.

and the monk .. duh. :P

i personally don't mind the hexway TOO much. sure it's annoying but eh .. got to have some different challenges once in a while. kinda like steady, except that was dumber.

Master Ketsu · Sep 29, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

why does all "balanced" look the same?

Because Izzy keeps nerfing good builds based on popularity while allowing builds that are just as good and in most cases even more overpowered then the skills he nerfed to go unchecked. The result has been people slowly migrating to the untouched builds and over time fewer and fewer OP crap exists finally to the point we are at now: were the only way to get by is to rely on a few overpowered skills ( most of which are in the Necro, mesmer, Warrior and monk lines ) and the best counters to them lie in the Ranger line. The result Is every balanced team pretty much has to run Mo - N - W - R, Mo - N - Me - W, or Mo - N - Me - R...with basically the same skills to counter said overpowered crap. And don't get me started on the gimmicks...

Everything Moko said is pretty much also correct. To add to that part of the reason certain stuff that would be good is out of the question is because of the counters to them. For example, there would be a heck of a lot more viable assassin builds if every monk wasn't running shield bash, which is basically uncounterable by sins since its effect takes place even if the attack used is an unblockable one.

TL;DR, Izzy Cant Balance.

icedwhitemocha · Sep 29, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

TA is allright now. Some old players have made comeback, some pure TA guilds have been made (of various quality).

It still suffers from the presence of guilds like vE or ursn and their hex crap but I think more ppl actually started playing balanced and trying to get better at it which are indeed good news.

Yeah, I've noticed an increase in people playing balanced as well. Foul feast just needs to die and I'll be happy.

Sun Fired Blank · Sep 29, 2008, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Squishy is not a huge problem, as everything else on your team is already squishy, and if your frontliner doesn't use a shield, he takes nearly as much damage from ebon as a dervish / sin anyways. When I last played, monks opted for dual stances rather than Shield Bash, so that isn't a huge problem either. The problem is that you have no reason to use a sin or a dervish because your elite is junk if you do. I'd probably run Moebius for the potential damage output of 5,000 damage per minute, and you can easily run another attack skill for Shield Bash. Ritualists in the necro slot are great if your team isn't shit, but if your team is bad then you've probably lost from the very start.

But the PvP in this game is universally a joke anyways now and I'm just waiting until the post-mAT update to see how things turn out.

Master Ketsu · Sep 29, 2008, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Its not so much just FF as it is the massive synergy between FF and plague sending. FF = I gain life, and plague sending is basically free and ends up costing the life that FF gained anyways. Plague sending itself is pretty OP, considering its a non-elite version of plague signet that is only slightly not as good.

If I did the balance for it, I would do this:

Move FF away from soul reaping, and put it in either blood or death. Would have to test to see which works better ( I'm betting blood ).

PS: make it so the conditions sent caps at 2 and increase the recharge to 10. The only reason Plague signet is seen as a meh skill is because this skill is practically just as spammable. People who want to use the FF/Send combo should have to forfeit their elite to do so.

Necro bars in general are pretty degenerate right now. Also, WoD is proving to be bad for the game.

But like Sun said, The PvP is a huge Joke right now mostly due to the tunnel vision balance changes. I may take another 6 month break from GW if some of the major issues go unfixed next major skill update.

Krill · Sep 30, 2008, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

I'm just waiting until the post-mAT update to see how things turn out.

Surely you're not expecting anything other than more retard friendly garbage?

Mourne · Sep 30, 2008, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

why does all "balanced" look the same? there was a time that the concept of "balanced" could actually *gasp* vary. different frontlines, different midlines, different (not so much) backline. now it's always w, r, n, mo, with very few teambuild differences. ZZZZZZ BORING, back to RA for me

This is probably the only thing that I will ever agree with you on.

I hate when everyone says that TA is fine when people run balanced, aka Magehunter/DevHammer War, Magebane Ranger, FF/CE Necro, Stance Monk. The skills in the builds are overpowered, and therefore act in the same way builds like shitway (aka VoR Mes, SB Necro, R/P, Monk) do. Back about 2 years ago you could run balanced and not have to copy some random template because it has the most OP skills around. There were multiple elites that were viable for different classes, opening up variety in builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Move FF away from soul reaping, and put it in either blood or death. Would have to test to see which works better ( I'm betting blood ).

PS: make it so the conditions sent caps at 2 and increase the recharge to 10. The only reason Plague signet is seen as a meh skill is because this skill is practically just as spammable. People who want to use the FF/Send combo should have to forfeit their elite to do so.

Not a bad suggestion.

the_deSKtructor · Sep 30, 2008, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Its not so much just FF as it is the massive synergy between FF and plague sending. FF = I gain life, and plague sending is basically free and ends up costing the life that FF gained anyways. Plague sending itself is pretty OP, considering its a non-elite version of plague signet that is only slightly not as good.

If I did the balance for it, I would do this:

Move FF away from soul reaping, and put it in either blood or death. Would have to test to see which works better ( I'm betting blood ).

I'm not sure about this change, i'd rather see ff giving you 1 nrg for each condition transfered (no matter how much you spec in sr) and a max energy gain cap at 1...2..3 nrg (basically the same breakpoints we have atm). Doing this will make it just slightly better than draw conditions.

Quote:

PS: make it so the conditions sent caps at 2 and increase the recharge to 10. The only reason Plague signet is seen as a meh skill is because this skill is practically just as spammable. People who want to use the FF/Send combo should have to forfeit their elite to do so.

Agree with thinking that plague sending is better than plague signet right now. Tho probably i'd rather see the recharge being capped at 8 and the cost increased to 5 because, right now, it allows you to use this skill to fake out casts (old GoLE style) whit no real drawback (losing 1 nrg every faked cast isn't really that bad).

Quote:

Necro bars in general are pretty degenerate right now. Also, WoD is proving to be bad for the game.

For WoD, i'd like to see the skill getting disabled for 10 seconds when you use it (black-out style). The skill would be pretty much fine right now if it wasn't that when u get 1 or more faster recharges on it it can really change the result of a match.

Quote:

But like Sun said, The PvP is a huge Joke right now mostly due to the tunnel vision balance changes. I may take another 6 month break from GW if some of the major issues go unfixed next major skill update.

Teh Jace · Sep 30, 2008, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourne

I hate when everyone says that TA is fine when people run balanced, aka Magehunter/DevHammer War, Magebane Ranger, FF/CE Necro, Stance Monk. The skills in the builds are overpowered, and therefore act in the same way builds like shitway (aka VoR Mes, SB Necro, R/P, Monk) do. Back about 2 years ago you could run balanced and not have to copy some random template because it has the most OP skills around. There were multiple elites that were viable for different classes, opening up variety in builds.

Try playing pvp in Warhammer online, WoW, Vanguard, Lotro or AoC... and u will see what imba rly means

Hundbert · Sep 30, 2008, 03:46 PM // 15:46

There is not much point running guardian on a monk bar atm.

Vs randomways (noobs) it's not needed as the match will be over in 30 secs anyway.
Vs other balanced if it isn't d-shot it will be ripped. Better to take something more reliable as a stance that will give you better protection. prekiting and good position are also better defence.

Sins as a frontline in ta don't work. If the attack chain isn't shield bashed it's gonna get d-shot if that too fails you can still lineback with good results.

Critical defences is useless. It will be ripped in 1 second if needed.

Dervs only have wounding strike which is easily shieldbashed or d-shot. Not much else to say.

Plague sending is fine. It's not like it's very hard to d-chop/d-shot anyway.

Don't compare shitway(hexway) to balanced you just don't have a clue.

Wod is ok. You can still preveil against it with good results but that 10 second disable wouldn't be so bad.

Plague signet is crap. An elite that just doesn't do anything.

Mourne · Sep 30, 2008, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hundbert

Don't compare shitway(hexway) to balanced you just don't have a clue.

They are comparable because of their use of overpowered skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

Try playing pvp in Warhammer online, WoW, Vanguard, Lotro or AoC... and u will see what imba rly means

I did play WoW, I do know what imba means IN THAT GAME. But yes, WoW really does have some stupidly imba classes.

Shooshu · Sep 30, 2008, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Dervs and sins suck in TA:
low AL
rend and GG

Thats why warriors are mostly used in TA, they dont rely on enchantments, they hit hard, and they knockdown.
What more?!@

moko · Sep 30, 2008, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hundbert

There is not much point running guardian on a monk bar atm.

Sins as a frontline in ta don't work. If the attack chain isn't shield bashed it's gonna get d-shot if that too fails you can still lineback with good results.

Critical defences is useless. It will be ripped in 1 second if needed.

i disagree.

here's some reasons why i still run guardian, although i hardly use it:

regarding your rip comment vs balanced -- not entirely true. if they rip my guardian -- okay, at least they won't touch my veils that way. with a lone ce (as rip will be wasted for guardian), the ce will only remove the vig spirit cover. plus if i run guardian i can run silly things like cripshot :P :P :P

but overall, in a balanced setup it's not as needed, but i like to play different builds too, and in these i need guardian (hell, even a condition removal !!1)

then there's also the random thumpway when i find guardian to be really nice. :P

and same with crit defenses -- a good vig spirit cover helps wonders. :P the sin would mostly carry another enchant anyways, so it wouldn't be such a big deal, but still waaaaaaaaaay inferior to a warrior. tho i do mean scythe sins, not actual daggers sins, as you already mentioned why daggers will fail.

Teh Jace · Sep 30, 2008, 05:52 PM // 17:52

If u thow ur guardian away u will become a lost existence

What else than guardian will force u to watch the field then? At least it will make ur lazy ass swap sets more.

Also balanced teams usually run CE and rip or just rip so their ench removal is very limited considering rip is 1s cast... And with all this vigorous spirit bullshit they will be busy stripping that first. Also having guardian allows u to bring N/E.

The fact u will mostly meet retarded teams with a dedicated linebacker (those guys with big hammers and grasping earth babysitting ur warrior 24/7) speaks for guardian as well.

Hundbert · Oct 01, 2008, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by moko

i disagree.

here's some reasons why i still run guardian, although i hardly use it:

regarding your rip comment vs balanced -- not entirely true. if they rip my guardian -- okay, at least they won't touch my veils that way. with a lone ce (as rip will be wasted for guardian), the ce will only remove the vig spirit cover. plus if i run guardian i can run silly things like cripshot :P :P :P

but overall, in a balanced setup it's not as needed, but i like to play different builds too, and in these i need guardian (hell, even a condition removal !!1)

then there's also the random thumpway when i find guardian to be really nice. :P

and same with crit defenses -- a good vig spirit cover helps wonders. :P the sin would mostly carry another enchant anyways, so it wouldn't be such a big deal, but still waaaaaaaaaay inferior to a warrior. tho i do mean scythe sins, not actual daggers sins, as you already mentioned why daggers will fail.

Moko if ur guardian gets ripped at an unfortunate time you may die. This was kinda my point

About sins and critical defences: I have yet to find some sins who can maintain their critical defences for a meaningful duration.

If you ask me this discussion is about the meta.
If i start seeing sins with deeply covered critical defences and that is somehow a problem for my teams i will start using rend.

Depending on enchantments has never been a good idea imo.

Tyla · Oct 01, 2008, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Doesn't Critical Defenses become the enchantment to be removed when it's refreshed anyway, regardless of what enchantment removal you use?

Hundbert · Oct 01, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

As far as i know in the soulbarb/recurring insecurity spike build when ri refreshes its placed on top so critical defences should work the same way.

So yes i think you are quite right.